2025 Legislative update: Legal system abuse reform

Record Date: 06/27/25
Air Date: 07/23/25

Listen as Deirdre Manna of Zurich North America and Adam Shores of the American Property Casualty Insurance Association share a midyear legislative update on tort reform efforts across the U.S. They discuss legislative successes in states such as Florida and Georgia. The conversation also highlights the expanding coalition working toward fairer legal systems, as well as the challenges that still persist in other states such as Illinois and New York, where new bills threaten to increase costs and liabilities. The guests emphasize the need for ongoing state-level advocacy and coalition building; and share how business involvement is vital for continued progress. Ultimately, these efforts aim to benefit everyday consumers, businesses and the broader economy.

UPDATE: During our conversation, Deirdre Manna mentioned a provision in the “Big Beautiful Bill” that, if passed, would have closed a tax loophole for third party litigation funders. This provision was struck before it was passed. 

In this miniseries, other episodes include:

January 15: 2025 Legislative outlook: Reforming legal system abuse

January 29: Wide implications of third-party litigation funding

February 12: Nuclear verdicts: The drivers, impacts and solutions

February 26: Social Inflation: Missing The role of claims fraud

March 12: Plaintiffs’ tactics: Fueling legal system abuse

March 26: Premises peril: Unpacking legal risks

Guests:

Adam Shores
Senior Vice President, State Government Relations
American Property Casualty Insurance Association

Adam Shores is senior vice president for state government relations for the American Property Casualty Insurance Association (APCIA), where he leads the organization’s state government relations and advocacy efforts. In this capacity, he advocates for public policy solutions benefiting insurance consumers and member companies. He also leads APCIA’s state political strategy, including managing the organization’s corporate PAC priorities and political engagement efforts.

Prior to joining APCIA, he spent nearly 15 years with Allstate Insurance Company where he directed strategic advocacy programs on several key public policy priorities.

Throughout his career, he has developed extensive experience in government relations, political engagement and public affairs in both the public and private sectors. He has been on the forefront of many insurance-related legislative initiatives and has extensive experience in grassroots engagement, issue advocacy and PAC management.

Prior to joining Allstate, he used his talents as a strategist and communicator in various roles while serving as a speechwriter in the administration of former Florida Governor Jeb Bush; a regional media director for the National Federation of Independent Business; a spokesman for the Florida Department of Education; and a legislative analyst in the Florida Senate Majority Office.

Shores holds a Bachelor of Science in Politics and Journalism from Troy University, and a Master of Professional Studies in Political Management from The George Washington University. He previously served as a member of his city council and presently resides in Libertyville, Illinois.

Deirdre Manna
Senior Vice President, Head of Government and Regulatory Relations
Zurich North America

Deirdre Manna is the Senior Vice President, Head of Government & Regulatory Relations for Zurich North America (ZNA) where she develops and advances state and federal public policy initiatives that align with the business priorities of ZNA (including Canada). Deirdre also is also responsible for oversight of ZNA’s regulatory affairs strategy including National Association of Insurance Commissioners. Deirdre leads the state and federal teams including managing professionals in Washington, D.C. and oversees the political operation including the Zurich Political Action Committee (Z-PAC).

Manna joined Zurich in July 2018 and has over 25 years of regulatory and political engagement experience. She came to Zurich from the Property Casualty Insurers Association of America (PCI) where she served as Political Engagement and Regulatory Affairs Vice President. There she led PCI’s political engagement division and managed regulatory and industry affairs throughout the country for the association.

Manna is a former state insurance regulator, having served as acting Director of the Illinois Division of Insurance. She also served as Assistant Vice President of the American Insurance Association and as a government relations professional for a prominent national law firm.

Host:

Justin Hicks
Communications Business Partner
Zurich North America

Justin Hicks joined Zurich North America as a Communications Business Partner in May 2023 and currently supports the internal communications efforts for the Direct Markets business unit and the Operations and Technology function.

Before joining Zurich, Justin served as a Public Affairs Communications Specialist at State Farm’s corporate headquarters beginning in 2015, supporting claims executives and leaders. In 2020 he left State Farm to become the first fully dedicated Internal Communications Manager at Rivian’s electric vehicle manufacturing plant in Normal, IL.

Justin began his career in 2007 as a corporate sales intern for the Cleveland Cavaliers of the National Basketball Association. In 2008, he served as a media relations assistant for the Cavs’ sister organization, the Cleveland Monsters, of the American Hockey League. He would return to the Cavs in 2011 as a Basketball Communications Assistant.

After hosting a football radio show in grad school, Justin has managed his own sports and music outlet entitled Hip-Hop Sports Report since 2012. He has honed his communication and hosting skills through his podcast of the same name since 2013, interviewing the likes of Dru Joyce II (LeBron James’ high school basketball coach), Chicago media personality Brandon Pope and rap legend Masta Ace.

Justin holds a bachelor’s degree in sports marketing from Bowling Green State University and a master’s degree in public relations from Ball State University.

(PLEASE NOTE: This is an edited podcast transcript, capturing speakers with natural speech patterns that may include incomplete sentences and/or asides, grammatical errors, verbal shorthand and some statements that may be less clear in print.)

Episode transcript:

JUSTIN HICKS: In January, this podcast looked at the upcoming legislative agenda as we embarked on a new year of tort reform efforts. Since then, we have seen vigorous action in every state legislature across the country to curb abuses in our legal system. Many of those bills have been proactive measures designed to bring more fairness and balance to our legal system. Today, we get an update.

Welcome to Future of Risk, presented by Zurich North America. We explore the changing risk and resilience landscape and share insights on the challenges that businesses face to help you meet tomorrow prepared.

Earlier this year, we took a deeper look into social inflation and legal system abuse and today we want to give you an update on our very first episode: “The 2025 Legislative landscape”. But first, a quick reminder. The term “social inflation,” refers to the rising cost of insurance claims and litigation costs beyond general economic inflation. It is driven by societal factors rather than traditional market forces, including society attitudes, legal practices, legal system abuse and cultural norms. And the effects go beyond the insurance industry and leads to higher insurance premiums, premiums for businesses, a strain on the economy, and growing financial impacts on everyday consumers.

I'm Justin Hicks, and today I'm speaking with Deirdre Manna, Head of Government and Regulatory Relations at Zurich North America. And Adam Shores, Senior Vice President, State Government Relations at the American Property Casualty Insurance Association, or APCIA. Deirdre and Adam, welcome back to the podcast.

DEIRDRE MANNA: Thank you. Happy to be here.

ADAM SHORES: Thanks, Justin. Happy to be here today.

Legislative Update: Zurich, APCIA, and Partners Advance State Law Changes

HICKS: Wonderful. Now, as you all well know, and many of our listeners know Zurich and the APCIA are important players in a multi-industry coalition that is actively involved in efforts to change some of the state laws that make it hard to combat some of the abusive practices.

Now, back in January, we discussed the legislative landscape with both of you, and at that time you described a very active and ambitious legislative agenda in states all across the country. And so, as we approach midyear, it seemed like a great time for us to get an update on that legislative agenda.

MANNA: Yes, thanks Justin. I'll kick it off. I recall the podcast so well, and I can't believe it's been six months, but a lot has happened. And we have gotten a lot accomplished. We were able to proactively pass legislation in a lot of states and also defend legislation that we had passed in previous years.

Adam and I are going to get into the specifics later, but just to mention a few on the proactive side. We accomplished a lot in Georgia, Louisiana, and other states, like Arkansas, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, and New Hampshire. That list is very long. We were also able to play defense in a lot of states where we fought back legislation that would be harmful to our efforts, particularly in Florida. And again, I'll get into that in a little bit more detail. But we had to play defense there.

There are also some challenges. We weren't a hundred percent successful, if you can believe this, in the political environment that we're in. We got some bad bills in New York. We've got a bad bill in Illinois. So, as we are being proactive and being defensive, we're also not able to beat back a couple of things.

But I would say that overall, we're ahead of the game here, and a couple reasons why. One is that the coalition building has been going so well. The coalition's getting larger. The interest is growing. And it's not only growing larger in number, it's also growing larger or expanding in the sectors.

So, we're getting more interest from the transportation, more interest from the hospitality groups and all these different areas and customers of ours that want to know what's going on, and now they want to be active, too. So that's been a big accomplishment. So overall, I would say that the momentum's there and that it's growing.

I've worked on a lot of these projects over the year, and the momentum starts to wane. Not here, I would say it's growing and continuing to grow, which I think is another thing that we can put in the win category.

The need for reform: Understanding Legislative action

HICKS: For sure. I remember even last time that you spoke to us on Future of Risk, you talked about that the coalition had grown to include all the major insurance carriers and I think all major Fortune 100 companies had at least awareness of it.

It's really cool to hear that there are members from other sectors outside of insurance that are getting involved as well. I think now is a good time to transition into kind of a step back in baseline question, if you will. Why is there a need for a legislative involvement in the first place? And that may sound like a simple question, but I feel like we need to kind of level set once again as far as why that's even important in the first place and why that's relevant for people.

MANNA: Right. There's a lot we can do to combat legal system abuse. And it's not just legislation, but the legislative piece of it is very important, and that's what we're really talking about today.

What happened was, in the nineties, there was a lot of really good tort reform or legal system abuse reform passed, and then over time it started to erode, and it wasn't being taken care of. It started to erode little by little. And so, a lot of these laws and regulations came back into place not only by legislation, but also by court cases.

We've also seen a change in society that we've been trying to address as well. There's a lot of frivolous lawsuits out there. There are runaway jury verdicts, and there’s a change in the attitude in the juries themselves that we're trying to combat as well. And that's really why we need the legislative fixes in a lot of these areas, in a lot of these states.

SHORES: Yes, and Justin, I'll just add to that. You know, I think the heart of the matter is in addition to everything that Deirdre outlined, is plain and simply put the trial bar is gaming the legal system, and it's eroding the trust that Americans have in the legal system.

I saw a stat recently that support for the American judicial system has dropped to an all-time low of 35% and when you look at the billions of dollars that are injected into the legal system, maybe about half of that actually goes to award a plaintiff who the plaintiff's bar is purporting to support. So, the trial attorneys are gaming this system, and they're gaming it on the backs of businesses. They're gaming it on the backs of consumers. They're gaming it on the backs of the very people that they purport to be standing up for and protecting.

The widespread impact of legal system abuse and the costs for consumers

HICKS: Adam, I know you've mentioned this in the past. The word abuse stands out in this matter, right? Like, I mean, we're talking about abuse of our legal system and for abuse of Americans everywhere. I think you mentioned in our last podcast that this was something that families at the kitchen table across the country are impacted by, right?

SHORES: Yes, that's exactly right. Some stats that I recently saw where the costs that are now being born by an average family of four are running about a little under $7,000 a year. So that's just increase in goods and services that are filtered through the legal system. So, when you pull up to the gas pump and you're filling up your car, or when you're going to the grocery store and buying milk and eggs, part of those incremental costs, inflationary pressures and a number of other things.

But there is a portion of those higher costs that consumers are seeing that can be directly attributed to a more litigious environment that is being spurred by the trial bar because it is their primary and only source of revenue. And so, why would they not do anything to expose those problems and expose those opportunities — I should say, rather for them to make money?

Reform roadmap: State-level legal reforms show results

HICKS: Well, if you're hitting me in the pocketbook, you got my attention. I can't speak for you or anybody else, but I know that's how I feel about it, right? I have announced to feel like so many other people, and so it's like, “Hey, this really matters. It really impacts everybody.”

So, what are some of the successes that you all have had at the state level to this point in 2025? You talked about it a little bit already, Deirdre.

MANNA: Yes, let me talk a little bit about Florida. We had to play defense there, because what happened was the legislation that we got passed in 2023, the trial bar came back and was trying to undo all those changes and we were successful.

One of the reasons we were successful is because we were able to show the results of those changes that we made in '23. This is actually one of my favorite parts of the overall story, and that is that we have had results in Florida. It's taken a while. It took us two years to see a lot of these things come to fruition. But we have.

So, in 2023, we passed a big comprehensive reform that included two-year statute of limitations for negligence, attorney fee reforms. A lot of different things were in the package. And so, what we're seeing now is a decrease in case filings by 42%. That's a large number of filings to come down that far. Florida used to be on the American Tort Reform Association's, what they call, the “judicial health hole,” where it's the worst states for legal system abuse.

HICKS: I think that name speaks for itself, right?

MANNA: <laugh> Yes, exactly. So, Florida was on that list for a long time, and it's now off of that list. The insurance market has seen improvements. There were nine additional property casualty insurers entered into the market.

Citizens, which is the insurer of last resort, it's the state insurance fund, they reduced their policy count by almost 20% in 2024. That's actually a favorite of the insurance commissioner in Florida. He loves talking about that. This is one of the best, is that 15 insurers filed for rate decreases in 2024 with several others seeking just a 0% increase. So, rates are going down, and this is after years and years in Florida rates increasing double-digit increases that we saw there. So that's just a great stat. And then 60% of Florida's top 10 carriers have expanded, and that's what they want.

A lot of carriers were withdrawing or not writing as much in the state, and we've seen a reversal there as well. Morgan and Morgan, which is one of the big law firms, there was an article recently that said that they had actually cutdown the number of attorneys in certain areas, including property. One of their areas of that they were having lawyers file lawsuits. They went from 30 lawyers in that division to just two. So, you can see that's more of a fun fact than the actual stats, but it's something that shows again, the progress that we've made in that state.

HICKS: That's incredible progress. Incredible progress. You're talking about two years’ worth of work, decrease in case filings, policy count going down, rates going down. It's all a testament to the hard work that's being done there. That's really something special. Adam, what would you say has been happening in Georgia of late?

SHORES: Yes, I think there's a lot of lessons learned from Florida that apply to Georgia. So, if I could just touch on Florida briefly and Deirdre is absolutely correct. I mean, this was a multi-year multi-partner effort to get to where we were and to see and achieve these real results.

In fact, I think just today the insurance commissioner in Florida announced a couple of new carriers coming into the market. So, every day we're seeing signs of this positive improvement. We would not have been able to do that without the leadership of Zurich and other companies and other business voices to help paint the story of why this is so important. So that's the same story that we took to Georgia over the last year or so through a lot of extensive effort.

There's a major coalition effort of business voices now outside of the insurance industry but certainly including the insurance industry working with Governor Kemp and leaders in the Georgia legislature to enact a broad package of reforms that included a number of things dealing with phantom damages, jury anchoring, premises liability to name a few third-party litigation funding as well.

So really sort of a panoply of great reform measures that were enacted. Now, our job in Georgia is basically to move to what our job has been in Florida is to protect those reforms and in doing so demonstrate the value of those reforms. So, we're going to have a period of time now where we want those reforms to bake in. We want to start to see tangible results, those same kind of results that Deirdre was talking about in Florida.

Our hope and our desire is to see those same results now, start to bear fruit in Georgia and then tell that story. And so, success begats success. So, if we are now going to start seeing those results in Georgia, then that helps us carry that mission to other states. And that's sort of what the broad strategy is, you know, [to] show that success and move it into other parts of the country.

So, we're very happy with the work that was done in Georgia. We know there will be continuing work there in Louisiana, for example, another state where we saw maybe not quite the fulsome amount of success that we saw in Georgia, but certainly some good movement forward in the face of some pretty strong political headwinds in terms of the trial bar influence in that state. But nonetheless, we saw some positive movement on things like no pay, no play, comparative fault, some other issues that we have long been talking about as needed reforms to move Louisiana out of that “judicial hell hole” mark as well.

Then in addition to those states where we saw sort of a larger package of initiatives move forward, and Deirdre mentioned some of the other states as well, but on third-party litigation financing, that has been sort of a tip of the spear issue for us, where we have been moving to push for disclosure of third-party lenders in the legal system, and in a sprinkling of states across the country, we're starting to see more movement on positive legislation being enacted there. So, that's also another mark of success that we've seen this year and something that we're really excited about.

MANNA: Yes, and what I like about what's happening in the third-party litigation funding area is that there was no guardrails around that industry. So, they had no rules. The insurance industry, it was quite the opposite. We're very heavily regulated and we're up against an industry that's not regulated at all. So those bills bring transparency to the system. They allow for them for the fact that they're being used to be entered into evidence to let the juries know, to let the judges know. That's what we want is that disclosure, so we get a more of a level playing field there. The other thing I was just going to mention about third-party litigation funding is that we're in the middle of —on the federal level — a piece of legislation that will help.

Now, when we talk about legal system abuse reform, it's really a state issue. It's a state-by-state issue. It's a long game. There's no federal silver bullet. What we'd all love is just one bill that goes through and fixes the whole country, but that's not how it works. But third-party litigation funding is one of the few areas that we have had some pieces of legislation, and we have one moving right now.

It's in the Big, Beautiful Bill — as everyone likes to call it — that's moving through the Senate right now. And basically, what it does is there's a loophole for litigation funders where they don't pay taxes. The plaintiffs who get the awards are paying taxes on those awards.

Well, the big funders found a loophole and they don't have to pay taxes. And this language in the Big Beautiful Bill that was put in the Senate is going to provide, is going to have a very high tax on the funders and on and on their awards that they receive. So, we believe that will deter some of the funding that's going out there and help with our overall efforts.

HICKS: Okay. You guys said a lot there. You covered a lot of ground <laugh>, but first of all I'm personally very pleased to see that we're providing some more transparency into the third-party litigation funding and the efforts there. The fact that there's no silver bullet, I think is interesting because like you said, “Pieces of legislation are going in at the federal level, but you know, you kind of have to still get in the dirt and get in the weeds at the state level and still kind of work this thing state by state. And so, seeing all that progress and the fact that we're gaining credibility with each state where we're seeing successes is really cool to see. Now shifting gears a little bit, what challenges still remain in the legislative cycle? [I’ll} start with Adam.

SHORES: Yes, I'm happy to touch on that, and I kind of alluded to some of those existing challenges that we're seeing in places like Louisiana where maybe were successful in seeing some reforms enacted. As I mentioned earlier, there's still some political headwinds that, you know, we'll be dealing with certainly moving forward even though Louisiana has a Republican governor, he is a trial attorney and he is closely aligned with the trial bar.

And so, there's certainly no love lost between the Governor and our industry. While we were able to, get him to agree to sign some of those positive legal reforms outside of the legal system abuse banner, there was some onerous insurance regulatory efforts that were a priority for him to enact. Those became law where there's more stringent rate review of the market because he likes to put the challenges with costs for Louisiana consumers squarely at the feet of insurance carriers, and we would humbly and vociferously disagree with that.

But nonetheless, we've seen some elements of not so positive results in places like that. And then you look at a place like Texas, a deep red state, even in those states with the rise in populism, there are challenges that get presented for the insurance industry and for the business community in trying to enact legal system abuse reform.

So, this year for example, we were very instrumental in being a part of a coalition to push forward a reform effort to cap damages on jury awards. And through the course of the legislative session, that just concluded here a few weeks ago, those reform provisions, at every step along the way, just kept getting whittled down and whittled down to the point where there was really nothing in the final version of that bill that was put forward for the legislature.

They did not ultimately pass it. Which is probably a good thing because passing something that is a paper tiger really isn't going to do much to make a difference. And so, it now gives us the opportunity to recalibrate, look at the political dynamics in a state like Texas.

Where do we need to shift our strategy so that when the legislature goes back into session again, to use the lessons that we learned from this session, modify our approach, look at what we can do to build other voices into our coalition to move our priority agendas forward. And so that's what we'll continue to do in Texas and elsewhere.

Illinois and New York: Two states battling for legal system abuse reforms.

HICKS: Deirdre, what would you say is taking place in in Illinois and New York?

MANNA: Yes, so in Illinois, things were going well in the session, and then at the very last-minute, in the last few days, the trial lawyers were able to get the Senate to waive all the rules and quickly pass a bill, a very bad bill that we're right now trying to get the governor to veto. What it does is it really expands the ability to sue.

So right now, you have to make a case to sue in Illinois. Well, this removes those barriers. And even if you're just registered in the state, you don't have any employees, the accident didn't happen in the state, you're not headquartered there, you are able to sue over what we call toxic torts. And so, we're concerned it's going to increase claims, it's going add cost to the system.

Again, we are trying to veto it, but it was a last-minute, very savvy move by the trial lawyers to shove that through. It will prevent business from coming into the state. So, because they're not going to want to register in the state and do business there if their liabilities are being expanded.

New York is another one — I'll just mention that's always a challenge — New York, and so we had a lot of bills that we're working on right now. We have a wrongful death bill that expands that area. Direct actions against third-party defendants. We have a consented jurisdiction, time limit impeding on third-party defendants.

So, there was a lot in the legal system abuse reform in New York and we are working hard to get those vetoed or amended, but we'll see what happens. So, those were the two states. Illinois is just one piece of legislation, but New York is a larger challenge with so many of them.

Building coalition and tacking frivolous lawsuits

HICKS: I'm fascinated to hear about it's this, like this game of chess that's taking place on the state-level across the country. So, it's like you have a game going on in Texas, you have a game going on in Illinois, you have a game going on in New York, and maybe there's some overlap between those individual games, but they're all still so different.

How do you manage to keep all that straight? How are we able to figure out what each of those areas are doing and each of those states are doing? I'm stumbling over my words, trying to find the right question, but I think you see what I'm getting at though, right.

Just the various miniature battles that are taking place across the country, just trying to keep all that straight is really interesting to me. Is there anything you can add that maybe helps our listeners understand how we're able to do that differently in each location?

SHORES: Maybe I can start with an answer there. And Deirdre, you want to fill in as well. I think from our standpoint as the trade, it starts with sort of a principled approach of what are we seeking to achieve. We are seeking to achieve a more fair legal system that removes frivolous cost from the system for consumers. We're in the mission of protecting people. This is one way that we very much view that we protect people, is to create a fair and cost-effective legal system.

So that's sort of the principle that we start with. And we have some known considerations that go into that because we know what the other side's motivation is. They're trying to line their pockets. That is their only motivation. That's what they care about.

So we go into every individual state, assuming those are the broad dynamics, understanding what the politics are in the individual state, building out a strategy that contemplates the particular political voices in that state, the influence of key voices in that state, what our focus is from an industry standpoint, how does the industry play in that state in terms of working to benefit consumers.

Then we build out a strategy, we enlist the support of member companies, other coalition partners and move forward that way. We do that with the understanding that we're not going to solve every problem every year. It's an ongoing effort, an ongoing conversation. As Deirdre said, “It would be great if we had, the ability to just have one bill sign that fixed everything,” but we just know that that's not the case.

So, we know we have to be steady, methodical, continue to tell the story, continue to enlist voices to help us with that process. And that's where we see even in the face of some headwinds or setbacks, we have a lot of proof points that we're moving the needle in the right direction.

MANNA: I'll only add, Adam, and you did a great job, Adam, of laying that all out. It's very complex, but shout out to APCIA our trade association. We have a lot of great partners, and as I said, “The coalition's building and people putting resources in.” I mean, from Zurich's point of view, we want to help our customers here. That is our goal. We want to help them lower their claims costs, we want to help them fight these frivolous lawsuits.

And so, what we're doing is joining forces, putting resources in it, finding the partners like APCIA and our other trades to really, you know, take this battle on. And it's kind of like we win the war. I think back to your point Justin earlier, it's like a game of chess. It's like you win a war, you win a pretty big war, then you get hit over here by a loss. And so, but right. That's, that all comes with the game.

Reforms driving down costs and fueling growth for families and businesses

HICKS: Indeed. Now, as we're able to pass some of the reform bills that will help us in this effort, what do those passages mean for businesses and consumers and the economy in general? I think we've already kind of touched on this subject, but I I'll allow you to kind of touch on it again.

SHORES: Yes, I'll step in on that. I think I did sort of allude to some of those facts and figures that talk about the average cost for families. While the passage of these reforms over time is going to reduce those costs for consumers for families who are looking to be successful and invest money for their kids' college or things like that. It just gives more freedom to do that.

From the business standpoint, it helps job creators create jobs. It helps bring more innovation into the economy. It helps bring more stability to local communities when you've got strong businesses who are there to support civic and philanthropic opportunities.

So, it kind of touches every part of society when you've got this cost reduction that leads the way it helps. It just helps with growth in so many different ways, both from the personal family standpoint, but from a business growth standpoint and from an overall economic wellbeing standpoint.

Collective strength: Expanding the coalition through business participation

HICKS: I guess now the $64,000 question, I'll throw it your way, Deirdre. What can businesses do to get involved?

MANNA: This is my favorite question, and this is a great way to end this podcast. That is to join the coalition, be part of the efforts. There was a while when we were educating everyone with the coalition and then we moved to action.

That's where we're seeing a lot of the successful results such as when I mentioned Florida and everything that's going on there to bring down insurance costs to fix that system. I think that it's important to kind of understand what the coalition is, as we've mentioned it several times.

It's the brokers, it's the carriers, it's the customers, it's the different areas. And what does it mean to join? It can mean whatever they want. You can listen and monitor and understand and just get information all the way to joining the coalition, activating employees in a state where we have a bill that we're trying to pass, or writing letters to the governor to veto a bill. It's all those things. The range is wide, and everybody's welcome under our tent. The more, the better. We have expanded it and the momentum continues. So, I think that's really the heart of being successful here, is businesses joining this coalition to get us through this.

HICKS: Well, this conversation was enlightening for me. I love hearing Adam's passion on this issue. I think it permeates the conversation and just really comes through. It's clear to see where you stand on this Adam, there on under no uncertain terms. There is a right side and then there's not the right side. Right.

SHORES: We believe we're on the right side. Let me just be clear about that. <laugh>

HICKS: Yes. And then Deirdre, I mean, you've put, help put this in terms that are very simple to understand. I mean, last time you talked to us about this David versus Goliath mentality that exists, and this time you talked about us playing offense and playing defense. And I'm a huge sports fan, so makes sense to me that, “Hey, you have to play offense and defense if you want to win ultimately. So, Deirdre, Adam, thank you both for joining us today it was lovely having you.

SHORES: My pleasure. Thank you. Thanks Justin.

HICKS: And thank you all for listening. If you want to learn more, you can visit our Legal System Abuse and Social Inflation Hub at zurichna.com. And if you like the show, you can leave a comment or review wherever you get your favorite podcast, or you can drop us a note at media@zurichna.com. This has been Future of Risk presented by Zurich North America.